“Assuming that I am right in thinking bin Salman does not wish heterodoxy to be punished so brutally, why doesn’t he change his nation’s apostasy laws?... The answer to both questions is internal pressure.”
There’s another answer.
Nothing like “separation of church and state” has ever appeared in Islam, to my knowledge. The closest examples are states in Muslim-majority countries that are strictly-secular, enforced laïcité, without anything like the interplay of religion and public life of, say, the United States.
And the most important reason why no such separation exists, is that unlike Christianity, Islam’s believes in the perfectibility of human nature. Sin is a choice, an external influence, not inherent to the soul. We’re sinners because we sin, and not the reverse.
With the right inducements, therefore, people can NOT sin. It’s up to them, with a little help from their friends, and family, and school, mosque, and state and its morality police.
But the Christian world, for example, believes we are inherently flawed. Not EVIL. But certainly not good, either. We’re “fallen.” A glorious ruin. Nothing straight from the crooked timber of humanity. Or whatever metaphor you prefer.
And so no amount of pressure can make people good. It has to happen by the grace of God, and that grace is not amenable to outside coercion.
The American founders believed this profoundly. The system is not designed to achieve greatness, but to avoid disaster, and especially tyranny, including the tyranny of the majority.
(Note: progressivism shares approximately the same understanding as Islam, on this issue, with approximately the same conclusions in law and policy.)
Separation of church and state is a uniquely American concept. It did not come about because of religious tolerance but because most of the original 13 colonies had official state religions ... and they were different so the Federal Government had to be prevented from overriding them.
Massachusetts stopped funding its state religion in 1833, 46 years after the Constitution was ratified
Another great article and I did send an email regarding Abdulbaqi Abdo to our senator requesting the US govt intervene though that will probably have zero effect.
I certainly will pray for Abdo as I do most days for the persecuted Christians. The list is getting longer. Nigeria, Eritrea, North Korea, Somalia, Cameroon, Algeria and let’s not forget Azerbaijan and its horrific treatment of Armenians in Nagorno Karabakh. Christians are the most persecuted group in the world. Jews would be next.
There are 50 countries on the world watch list - North Korea, Somalia, Afghanistan and Libya are the worst. For Libya we have to thank Blair and Obama.
Yemen is very high on the list as is Egypt.
Western governments are not interested. I do not think the west should intervene but quiet pressure and a withdrawal of aid is perhaps a start.
Many thanks to Ayaan Hirsi Ali and others with broad views of the world that Westerners are dangerously lacking.
It's sad that Westerners are so ignorant of their rights and freedoms that were established by New World pioneers that believed strongly in rational principles of civilization for benefit of all humanity.
That could all be lost in the current century as Western countries are over-run by uncontrolled immigration of Islamic hordes 'escaping' Old World countries with laws that require "death for all non-believers" — but bringing those same anti-civilization beliefs with them. The 2000s may be the beginning of the New Dark Ages.
Without Freedom to change religion there is no religious freedom. I.3 Billion Muslims do not have freedom to leave Islam. In 11 countries there is death sentence and in anther 15 it is a crime ex-muslims are not allowed exist https://freedom2worship.org .
I've understood, probably erroneously, Muslims consider Christ as a Prophet. I can't believe it could be true for Christ NEVER taught anyone should execute a nonbeliever!!! I WILL pray for this innocent man and his family!!
We will like OIC to walk the talk of religious freedom • Absolute freedom for all Muslims in the Muslim World to choose their belief or religion by their own consent and to guarantee their civil and legal rights required to follow their new belief or religion and to live freely by its teachings. • The stop of all forms of discrimination against all minorities in the Muslim World, regardless of their origin, ethnic or faith backgrounds. • Protection of the freedom of individuals and groups to worship and proclaim their belief or religion in all Islamic States. All this in line with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 18 and 19 The Apostasy Law: First-Hand Accounts of Suffering, Kamal Fahmi The St. Charles Institute Link
“Assuming that I am right in thinking bin Salman does not wish heterodoxy to be punished so brutally, why doesn’t he change his nation’s apostasy laws?... The answer to both questions is internal pressure.”
There’s another answer.
Nothing like “separation of church and state” has ever appeared in Islam, to my knowledge. The closest examples are states in Muslim-majority countries that are strictly-secular, enforced laïcité, without anything like the interplay of religion and public life of, say, the United States.
And the most important reason why no such separation exists, is that unlike Christianity, Islam’s believes in the perfectibility of human nature. Sin is a choice, an external influence, not inherent to the soul. We’re sinners because we sin, and not the reverse.
With the right inducements, therefore, people can NOT sin. It’s up to them, with a little help from their friends, and family, and school, mosque, and state and its morality police.
But the Christian world, for example, believes we are inherently flawed. Not EVIL. But certainly not good, either. We’re “fallen.” A glorious ruin. Nothing straight from the crooked timber of humanity. Or whatever metaphor you prefer.
And so no amount of pressure can make people good. It has to happen by the grace of God, and that grace is not amenable to outside coercion.
The American founders believed this profoundly. The system is not designed to achieve greatness, but to avoid disaster, and especially tyranny, including the tyranny of the majority.
(Note: progressivism shares approximately the same understanding as Islam, on this issue, with approximately the same conclusions in law and policy.)
Separation of church and state is a uniquely American concept. It did not come about because of religious tolerance but because most of the original 13 colonies had official state religions ... and they were different so the Federal Government had to be prevented from overriding them.
Massachusetts stopped funding its state religion in 1833, 46 years after the Constitution was ratified
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States#Tabular_summary
The UK, of course, has the King as the head of the Anglican Church.
Why is there no "Fatwa" against Barak Obama?
He was born into Islam and chose to leave it as an adult.
Maybe because Obama never actually left Islam?
Or perhaps it's because of "Taqqiya"? The condition where lying to promote the cause of Islam is acceptable?
Another great article and I did send an email regarding Abdulbaqi Abdo to our senator requesting the US govt intervene though that will probably have zero effect.
I certainly will pray for Abdo as I do most days for the persecuted Christians. The list is getting longer. Nigeria, Eritrea, North Korea, Somalia, Cameroon, Algeria and let’s not forget Azerbaijan and its horrific treatment of Armenians in Nagorno Karabakh. Christians are the most persecuted group in the world. Jews would be next.
There are 50 countries on the world watch list - North Korea, Somalia, Afghanistan and Libya are the worst. For Libya we have to thank Blair and Obama.
Yemen is very high on the list as is Egypt.
Western governments are not interested. I do not think the west should intervene but quiet pressure and a withdrawal of aid is perhaps a start.
Written to my MP asking her to ask the Foreign secretary what pressure he is bringing to bear on the Egyptians on this case.
Many thanks to Ayaan Hirsi Ali and others with broad views of the world that Westerners are dangerously lacking.
It's sad that Westerners are so ignorant of their rights and freedoms that were established by New World pioneers that believed strongly in rational principles of civilization for benefit of all humanity.
That could all be lost in the current century as Western countries are over-run by uncontrolled immigration of Islamic hordes 'escaping' Old World countries with laws that require "death for all non-believers" — but bringing those same anti-civilization beliefs with them. The 2000s may be the beginning of the New Dark Ages.
Without Freedom to change religion there is no religious freedom. I.3 Billion Muslims do not have freedom to leave Islam. In 11 countries there is death sentence and in anther 15 it is a crime ex-muslims are not allowed exist https://freedom2worship.org .
As brilliant as ever.
Thank you Ayaan Hirsi for bringing this issue up many people suffer under Apostasy and Blasphmey laws in Islam, which is a clear violation of article 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Some of the victims https://freedom2worship.org/images/docs/victims-apostasy-blasphemy-12feb2020.pdf
I've understood, probably erroneously, Muslims consider Christ as a Prophet. I can't believe it could be true for Christ NEVER taught anyone should execute a nonbeliever!!! I WILL pray for this innocent man and his family!!
We will like OIC to walk the talk of religious freedom • Absolute freedom for all Muslims in the Muslim World to choose their belief or religion by their own consent and to guarantee their civil and legal rights required to follow their new belief or religion and to live freely by its teachings. • The stop of all forms of discrimination against all minorities in the Muslim World, regardless of their origin, ethnic or faith backgrounds. • Protection of the freedom of individuals and groups to worship and proclaim their belief or religion in all Islamic States. All this in line with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 18 and 19 The Apostasy Law: First-Hand Accounts of Suffering, Kamal Fahmi The St. Charles Institute Link
https://medium.com/set-my-people-free/the-apostasy-law-first-hand-accounts-of-suffering-kamal-fahmi-the-st-charles-institute-297bbfee73a
This Map shows where Islamic Apostasy and Blasphmey laws are applied. https://freedom2worship.org/images/docs/map-laws-july2020.pdf
I agree wholeheartedly